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Forums > Announcements > Beta Testing - Rhymetime
| Beta Testing - Rhymetime | |
| 14th Aug 2009 - 12:18 | by sneeze |
| Here's a new game for testing: Rhymetime. There's a few things I need to know about it:
Do the game modes feel alright? Specifically is there enough time or too much time or not enough time on each mode? Are there any words you tried to use that aren't in the dictionary? This is really important - I know it's piecemeal, but there's bound to be some fairly obvious ones and for every one I add, it's one less potential complaint! Are there any words that it comes up with as questions that are inappropriate? Eg words that aren't words, that are people's names, that are too difficult, that are insulting or otherwise inappropriate? Does it need sound? I'm inclined not to do it since it won't really add anything to the game, but people may disagree! Other than that, any other bug reports etc would be handy. | |
Replies: |1-10|11-20
| 14th Aug 2009 - 13:49 | by jansic |
| Words it doesn't have include "grails", "colours" or "dystopia" but it does have the non-words "careercom" and "jobst". I suspect you'll be pruning the dictionary for a long time.
After quite a probing play I have a reasonably harsh comment - the data isn't right for the comparison you need to do. The dialog shows you a 'syllable match' yet the detail view shows that it's not used syllables at all but segmental phonemes. e.g Nymph and Plinth rhyme reasonably well, have the same meter and are syllable compatible but their segmentals prevent them matching. Since people don't pronounce segments individually many potential rhyming words will never pass the comparison. Essentially the more elaborate and clever the rhyme the less likely you are to be rewarded for it. | |
| 14th Aug 2009 - 14:12 | by Jordax |
| I tried the Medium level. Some of its words suggestions were... interesting. "Manhood" for instance. Really? Is this a kid's game? It also suggested "burlesque".
It seems to be quite a harsh judge of rhymes: I suggested "spire" for "liar" and got nothing. Likewise, "python" for "siphon". But then sometimes it lets through some rough choices with high marks. e.g. "dissuade" for "persuade". I'd say you really, really need to manually tune the word list. And a super nitpick, I mistyped a word and the sheep says something to the effect of "I don't know that word. You can't expect a sheep to know all the words." But I don't care what the sheep knows, it's the cow that's judging me...... | |
| 14th Aug 2009 - 14:21 | by Jordax |
| Also, on Easy it asked for "sheik" but it was very hard to read - the E and the I collided. I suggested "flake" for a measly 60 point partial rhyme. :(
Quite pleased it knew "boned" for "stoned". :) I wanted "wrens" against "pens", but it only knows "wren". It asked for rhymes with "the" - not a great word. | |
| 14th Aug 2009 - 14:53 | by sneeze |
It seems to be quite a harsh judge of rhymes: I suggested "spire" for "liar" and got nothing. Likewise, "python" for "siphon". Spire and liar I think should be rhymes. By the look of it it does spire as one syllable and liar as two, which seems odd to me but may be american english. There's a few of thses - it had lorry as more like lawry. Interesting that both you and jansic have come up with the lack of similarity between th and ph. Im not that sure it's incorrect though - you'd have to alter the sound of word (subtly) for it to actually rhyme. Cow is clearly pedantic. If I had all the time in the world I'd probably give you an "imperfect rhyme" result and some extra points for things like this, similarly with N and M sounds which are similar, and possibly S and Z sounds. As it is, Cow is just pedantic. But then sometimes it lets through some rough choices with high marks. e.g. "dissuade" for "persuade". This is something that annoys me too! I think I've worked out the theory for this situation, but it's not very easy to implement. And a super nitpick, I mistyped a word and the sheep says something to the effect of "I don't know that word. You can't expect a sheep to know all the words." But I don't care what the sheep knows, it's the cow that's judging me...... These sorts of nitpicks are useful btw - they really add to the polish level. I wanted "wrens" against "pens", but it only knows "wren". this is something else that really annoys me - the list has a lot of these missing plurals in. Thanks to both of you for the criticism and words, though :) | |
| 14th Aug 2009 - 23:35 | by jansic |
Spire and liar I think should be rhymes. By the look of it it does spire as one syllable and liar as two,
They should. Both comprise two flowing phonemes and are both one-syllable long.
Which seems odd to me but may be american english. There's a few of thses - it had lorry as more like lawry.
I'd noticed this and I don't think there's a good fix. Rhyming is much easier in phonetic languages where the spelling isn't an approximation of the word's pronunciation like it is in English. e.g half the UK will want 'scone' to rhyme with 'gone' and half with 'stone' - in Japanese or Russian the distinction would never have existed.
Interesting that both you and jansic have come up with the lack of similarity between th and ph. Im not that sure it's incorrect though - you'd have to alter the sound of word (subtly) for it to actually rhyme.
Being a perceptual phonetic effect rhyming is defined by subtle similarities in enunciation anyway - PH and TH when approached from the right intonation will 'rhyme' well within the realms of the definition. I think this is where the game will fall down with more linguistically capable people - A cunning poet will probably score lower than a child doing simple pronunciation substitution.
On a side note 'hard' mode is combinations of VERY hard and VERY easy - merely because the dictionary doesn't contain enough related words. Words like "perplexes" and "reflexes" don't rate well, while "Misapprehension" and "Comprehension" rate extremely well despite a syllabic difference. In the same vein, it can't reasonably ask for a word like "transitional" and then refuse several other valid words (like "positional"). Jans. | |
| 15th Aug 2009 - 12:15 | by sneeze |
Which seems odd to me but may be american english. There's a few of thses - it had lorry as more like lawry.
I'd noticed this and I don't think there's a good fix. Rhyming is much easier in phonetic languages where the spelling isn't an approximation of the word's pronunciation like it is in English. e.g half the UK will want 'scone' to rhyme with 'gone' and half with 'stone' - in Japanese or Russian the distinction would never have existed.Fortunately the program copes with multiple pronouciations of words. February has 5 different ones! For liar and spire, both can be pronounced as two syllables or one (and the dictionary now knows this :) Interesting that both you and jansic have come up with the lack of similarity between th and ph. Im not that sure it's incorrect though - you'd have to alter the sound of word (subtly) for it to actually rhyme.
Being a perceptual phonetic effect rhyming is defined by subtle similarities in enunciation anyway - PH and TH when approached from the right intonation will 'rhyme' well within the realms of the definition. I think this is where the game will fall down with more linguistically capable people - A cunning poet will probably score lower than a child doing simple pronunciation substitution.The more I think about this the less I agree, at least in terms of this game. If you want python and siphon to rhyme, you have to pronounce python as pifon, which if you were a child you'd get told off for (like library as liberry). I see your point and I'd agree that a good poet might use them anyway with some care, but I'm quite happy that Cow is a perfectionist and only wants words that accurately rhyme when pronounced correctly :P On a side note 'hard' mode is combinations of VERY hard and VERY easy - merely because the dictionary doesn't contain enough related words. Words like "perplexes" and "reflexes" don't rate well, while "Misapprehension" and "Comprehension" rate extremely well despite a syllabic difference. In the same vein, it can't reasonably ask for a word like "transitional" and then refuse several other valid words (like "positional").
Hard is a bit of an odd one really - I'm not going to worry about it too much - the best way to play hard is probably to ignore syllables and make quick partial and secondary rhymes, which probably defeate the point. Unfortunately, as you say, the dictionary needs to be enormous and full of variations of words for hard mode to be really good, and I'm just not willing to spend the time adding long words :) | |
| 15th Aug 2009 - 23:20 | by Jordax |
The more I think about this the less I agree, at least in terms of this game. If you want python and siphon to rhyme, you have to pronounce python as pifon, which if you were a child you'd get told off for (like library as liberry).
I dunno, I think pie-thon and sigh-fon sound pretty similar. Not perfect rhymes perhaps, but pretty close. As a side note, when I first read your reply I read pifon as "pii-fon" where "pii" should be said like the start of "pig". I was then wondering where you were from to pronounce siphon as "sii-fon". :) | |
| 15th Aug 2009 - 23:24 | by Jordax |
Being a perceptual phonetic effect rhyming is defined by subtle similarities in enunciation anyway - PH and TH when approached from the right intonation will 'rhyme' well within the realms of the definition. I think this is where the game will fall down with more linguistically capable people - A cunning poet will probably score lower than a child doing simple pronunciation substitution.
I have a slight disagreement here although it supports my cause. While there is lots of performance poetry that can be made to work well when read aloud, the better rhyming poetry rhymes based on common pronounciation. The cleverness is in finding words that rhyme reliably, not words that can be made to rhyme using a hammer. There aren't many people who risk rhyming about scones. :) | |
| 16th Aug 2009 - 10:29 | by sneeze |
The more I think about this the less I agree, at least in terms of this game. If you want python and siphon to rhyme, you have to pronounce python as pifon, which if you were a child you'd get told off for (like library as liberry).
I dunno, I think pie-thon and sigh-fon sound pretty similar. Not perfect rhymes perhaps, but pretty close. Ironically, despite my previous posts, I've now come around to the idea that they should get points, as should nymph and plinth. Not because I think they're good rhymes, but because they rhyme to some extent, and far better than a mere partial rhyme. It's not too hard for me to add an imperfect rhyme classification which allows a match for N and M sounds and TH and F sounds. In terms of gameplay, it's not good to give zero or very low points unless it really doesn't deserve it. I'll probably up the points for a secondary rhyme and give about 200-300 points for an imperfect rhyme. | |
| 17th Aug 2009 - 13:19 | by jansic |
| I think the core issue of this debate is that we're all assessing rhyme validity at different levels and it's not anywhere near a simple enough algorithm to quantize this way.
From the game's point of view word-on-word rhyming is what you need to succeed; but not everybody will see rhymes in this way. If you poke the wiki entry on rhyming the topic is really quite complicated so you can't really cover all the variations well. There are always going to be some constructs that work for people but not the game and for the game and not the people. A more analogue scoring scale would probably be safest; as you say, match scores of 'zero' aren't really in the spirit of the game. ...there was a little nymph, sitting on a plinth... | |